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All Communications Fair Game
New York Times | Submitted by: asdf
"The National Security Agency has traced and analyzed large volumes of telephone and Internet communications flowing into and out of the United States as part of the eavesdropping program that President Bush approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to hunt for evidence of terrorist activity, according to current and former government officials. The volume of information harvested from telecommunication data and voice networks, without court-approved warrants, is much larger than the White House has acknowledged, the officials said. It was collected by tapping directly into some of the American telecommunication system's main arteries, they said." ... Also: FBI checks radiation levels at mosques
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From: tucanscrew
[three's more fun]
Date: 24-Dec-2005 23:51
If the feds ran across evidence of a crime, other than terrorism, wouldn't the lack of warrant negate the evidence? Can an illegal wiretap be used as probable cause for a search warrant?
From: turbopotato [I don't have an SSN]
Date: 24-Dec-2005 23:57
In this day in age, with the way that a lot of things seem to be going, I really wouldn't put it past the federal government to allow such evidence in the court of law. It's truly a sad day when you see something like this happen, but eventually the federal government is gonna screw up so much shit that people just won't stand for it anymore. People control the governments, not the other way around. -TurboPotato
From: alphabunny [yippie]
Date: 24-Dec-2005 23:57
if muslims want just as many rights as us redblooded americans do, maybe they should tell thier wayward potential-osama-bin-ladener suicide bomber jihad cousins to stop blowing shit up. "um... achmed? me and musad have been a little concerned that you've been buying so much fertilizer. here. have a falafel, sit, we'll talk" wow! that simple! may the government will start whistling a different tune.
From: mikeisgreen
[Mike]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 00:04
The Total Awareness Information System was never scrapped, just renamed. A lot of different names. Internally it is known as the smokescreen system. And the telecoms co-operated with this shit? I submitted an article from the CBC about this. The headline was GANG RAPE! [cbc.ca] This is very disturbing. I'm at the point where if the current US administration wants to seal the border with us [Canada], I might not object as vehemently as I would without all this 1984 crap going on. "Total Awareness Information System" sounds more Orwellian than Orwell. I know that this is none of my business, but I really hope you guys get McCain in the White House in '08.
From: robwrigley
Date: 25-Dec-2005 00:16
Well, 'Screw, and 'Potato: I think 'not admissible' is a moot point. I would assume any evidence collected in this way would never be used in a court of law, and would not be made public for many, many years. Rather, it would be used directly, by CIA/FBI/NSA agents (jack-booted, or otherwise) to prevent attacks, track suspected agents, and get rid of any real threats. Of course, you might now approve of the government acting this way, but I would be a bit disappointed myself if they didn't. I don't believe in giving legal protection to the type of actors this kind of espionage is (or should) be used against. Allowing folks to use the freedoms of U.S. citizenship to attack it seems, somehow, silly to me. Rob
From: robwrigley
Date: 25-Dec-2005 00:26
Mike: I think the best possibility right now is McCain/Gulliani or Gulliani/McCain. I'm a big fan of both of them. I've had them both on my microphones (Rudy many times) and think they are they most upfront and honest-speaking guys in American politics. It is also a very strong ticket, particularly against the very real prospect of Hillary Clinton getting the Democratic nomination. I don't expect American policy, foreign or domestic, will change very much. Stuff like that is too far-reaching to to dominated by any one individual, even the President. But I do think that either of these men make a better spokesman for the U.S. than our current guy. Rob
From: spacedcadet5555 [dick]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 00:27
I hate to repeat my self, well maybe not. but big brother is watching and listening. and Santa is too. better watch out.
From: guntotingliberal [GunTotingLiberal]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 01:11
Four more years of republican rule? Is that what you guys are suggesting? They are grinding our country into the dust. Guilliani is too crooked and would run into too much trouble, IMHO. I never interviewed him but I did attend a class where he was a guest lecturer three or four times for a class about, get this, ethics. He was a very impressive individual and, if 9/11 is a good example, a competent leader. Far and away better than the bush crime family. But. I question his political future. I think mayor of NYC was it's peak - at least for an elected position. As far as McCain goes? I dunno but I think the real power brokers in the Republican party would not allow him to win the primary. I don't think they like him. He is much more a conservative democrat, anyway.
From: mikeisgreen
[Mike]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 01:34
From: guntotingliberal [GunTotingLiberal] Date: 25-Dec-2005 01:11 "As far as McCain goes? I dunno but I think the real power brokers in the Republican party would not allow him to win the primary. I don't think they like him. He is much more a conservative democrat, anyway." ------------------------------------------------------------ I remember a political cartoon about the 2000 Republican primaries, when Bush and McCain were pulling even polls. Bush was all decked out, roaring along in a hulking F1 racecar, while the little guy McCain was keeping up, on a kiddie tricycle. The thought balloon over Bush read "How does he DO that? I loved it. But you're right. McCain is too level headed for the power brokers to puppet, and not sleazy [slick?] enough (Think Bubba) to manipulate the brokers. We've had a few cases recently here in Canada like that. *sigh* If you guys don't want McCain, send him here. (No Tasty Taters or fruit punch jokes, Canadagirl, Bliss, or anyone else!)
From: blackmagic [Blackmagic]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 02:14
wow, America has big brother. You people are so messed up.
From: wingedmonkeyminion [Satan Himself]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 02:26
...and they, much like us, have learned nothing.
From: puredemo
[Dan]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 03:18
How is data mining all this good for finding terrorists? I mean, how many terrorists are going to use "bomb," "toxic gas," or "whateverthensaislookingfor" in e-mails or phone conversations? Finding out that 147,000 thirteen-year old girls think myspace is the bomb isn't going to help much when the real e-mails say "Pick Mike up from school at nine." My guess is that there has been little success from this inititive for the expense, typical republican spending habits with no results. Dan
From: jayjg [Jayjg the Jew]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 05:22
Cryptofascist morons like Rob Wrigley are the reason the USA is sliding to hell faster than a drunk crack whore on a fat man's dick.
From: twdldee [twdldee]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 05:47
That sounds like Condeleeza proposed the idea to dumbfuck. Great. Now she's approving CIA secret flights, overseas prisons…Condeleeza's one good house nigger. She might even get Bush's seed.
From: pontiuspilatus
[Pontius Phallus Pilatius]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 05:54
My guess is that this has been going on in Europe for much longer. I'd accept it if they use the information for terrorist prevention only. But what if they find out that you cheat on taxes and bust you for that? Freedom?
From: brightwood
[Bright]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 06:54
First off, I am one who is of the opinion that if you have anything to hide from anyone else at all, you shouldn't be telling about it to anyone else at all, regardless of if it's face-to-face, or through the mail, or over the phone or in an email. So, I don't see what the big problem is about at all. In my state it is totally legal for any party in any electronic communication to record the entire content of that communication. I am required, however to do business with governmental agencies within the state of Washington, where they believe they are protected from that with their own flavor of anti-recording laws, where if you don't specifically ask for permission and if you don't specifically get permission, but you record the message anyway, without a court order, they have it on the books as you having committed a felony. Well, I ran into several, not just one, but several, abusers of that law, lying to me on the phone, sending me fraudulent mail which they "explained" as being completely different over the phone, and I recorded their explanations, and it wound up costing those agencies lots and lots of money in a court of law in my own state. My state couldn't persuade the State of Washington to extradite its governmental agents to my state to be held accountable for the multiple acts of fraud they'd been committing against my fellow citizens, but there are a few dozen arrest warrants just ready to be served in the instance that any of those criminals decide to drive through my state and get stopped for a traffic infraction, but the same is true of me whenever I go to Washington. They wanted my state to extradite me for committing what their state calls a felony, which in my own sovereign, non-bordering state, is perfectly legal, all because with the evidence I collected against their government, they have wound up losing lots and lots of money. All because they believe that they can lie to people over the phone, and that since they're the government, no judge in Washington is going to sign a wiretap warrant. So, again, personally, I think anybody wiretapping anybody else for criminal purposes is good thing. Now, about whether or not any such recordings would be admissable as evidence... they would be inadmissable in a criminal court of law UNTIL they were admitted in another court of law. Get someone to sue the same party and use that recording as evidence, and even if you lost the lawsuit, it would now be evidence admissable in a criminal case. Why do you think so many criminal cases take so long for the prosecution to prepare for?
From: gargoyle1
Date: 25-Dec-2005 07:01
What pisses me off more than Bush ordering a violation of my rights is the fucking telecoms kissing his ass and doing it. They should have screamed bloody murder about it and got his dick slapped in the dirt for it. Ass kissers like this really piss me off.
From: azdollarbill [Jim Jones]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 07:22
I'm all upset(sniffle, sniffle). I just checked the map, where all the radiation detectors are posted by city, & Phoenix isn't there! Bush doesn't care if Phoenix gets nuked! Probably because Mc Cain lives here.
From: splittheatom
[Assless]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 07:42
"You think you’ve private lives Think nothing of the kind There is no true escape I’m watching all the time I’m made of metal My circuits gleam I am perpetual I keep the country clean" 
From: turbopotato [I don't have an SSN]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 08:07
Like what was said before, it's not like any of this is new. The NSA and CIA have just gotten better at catching signals. This also isn't the first time the NSA has tapped major US telecommunications lines inorder to snoop, they've been doing it for the last 30 years, thier methods have just gotten a bit better. As for what needs to be done about this and the future of american poltics pertaining how forgin policy is going to be dictated, I believe a major overhaul for all levels of government needs to take place. I think we should round up ever single congressman, white house aid, president, whatever and TAR AND FEATHER THIER ASSES like the old days, because not only would it be cool to see that, but it would also send a message to the government that people arn't fucking around. I want america to be here for my grand kids but if things keep going the way they are then there won't be much of an america left in 20 years. Fuck this place I'm moving to canada, at least pot is semi-legal there. :P -TurboPotato
From: brainpus [@theColiseum]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 08:21
This 'surveilance' that is the talk of the town was going on long before 9/11/01. It's here to stay. When they want you, you will be picked like a scaly booger under a pinky fingernail and flicked away.
From: s1mps0n [Smarter Than You]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 09:34
Do not rock the boat. The government loves you. We exist for your protection. Continue with your daily lives. Remember terrorists are everywhere, report any suspicious activity. Buying products helps the economy. Get back in line, deviation causes suspicion.
From: lordpakul [Lord Pakul]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 10:13
Snoops and spooks all over the world, in military, government and other organizations have been trolling electronically for all sorts of information, legally and illegally, for a long time. I don't think that people outside of outfits such as the NSA and its ECHELON counterparts and contractors in the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have a good sense of what their technological and analytical capabilities really are or how they are used. Oversight has been nominal, at best. ECHELON - [wikipedia.org]
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 10:26
and as for me,...Its Condi or nothing. Guilliani may have the best chance, although his stance on euthanizing unborn babies is sure to turn off many voters. As for McCain, I can't support a guy that gives away our governments ability to protect itself. During war, we must do anything and everything to disrupt our enemy. Otherwise, you could lose the war. We ARE at war, like it or not. We have been at war since the 80's, many people have just been trying appeasment. So dont whine about surveillance or radiation detectors.. Finally, I think it's about time our President starts rounding up some of the terrorist sympathizers that are running around in our country. They can start in Washington!
From: stevefazek [plunder]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 10:34
as much as this pisses me off every country has been spying on its people with out warrents for years. Austrailia has been doing this since the 80s. too many countries to list
From: virageblue [Bluevirage]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 10:35
I knew they were doing this for years. (what good are conspiracy theories without a conspiracy or two eh?) What gets me mad, is the fact that Bush is flaunting his illegal power, showing that he can take all the laws of the land and wipe his ass with them in *public*! I liked it better when they kept all this stuff SECRET! It bothered me a lot less knowing about it and knowing it was in the dark. Giving the illusion of the government not trying to watch everything I was doing. As opposed to this being a public crap fest what with the Prez taking a crap whenever he wishes to ease our minds and showing it to us. It may not be his fault for the information getting out. But, when you take the routes he has, of course it is going to get out! I swear, the guy needs to get impeached, but, as usual we can blame a few factors as to why he won't. Liberal Media 9-11 Political Cartoonists (Tom Tomorrow I am looking at you) Bah, whatever, they need to keep stuff like this under the rug. Strangely I am less disturbed by it when I know its mostly hidden from public view. Much like sewage staying in the sewer. I prefer certain things to be kept out of sight, sound and nose range.
From: rufustfirefly [rufus t firefly]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 11:34
What sucks is that its so easy to doctor a recording - you could make anyone "say" pretty much anything in some recording. Hilarity ensues!
From: commonsense
[please]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 11:50
I'm not sure if the DNR is run state by state or if it's a nationwide agency, but here in Michigan, if a DNR officer pulls up in your driveway and thinks you have illegally killed animals on your property, he pulls out the proper form and writes his own search warrant on the spot. If the people who keep track of terrorist activities had this power, there would be no issue. Need a warrant? Push a button and sign your name. Done. Of course, a spying organization with this sort of power sounds terrifying, but if we really wanted to keep it on the up and up we'd have to have an agency keeping track of the spies. Sounds like a lot of red tape, but it also sounds better than government agents being able to spy on anyone they want without a warrant.
From: username2 [username2]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 12:45
"All Americans should be concerned about the apparent trend toward a two-tiered system of justice, with full rights for most citizens and another diminished set for Muslims," said Nihad Award, an official of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the nation's largest Muslim civil liberties group." You mean like the two-tiered system of justice the muslim terrorist are using against innocent people in Iraq, before they slice their throats or cut off their heads? With diminished rights for all people and another set for muslim terrorist. Is this the two-tiered system of justice, you refer to?? Before you start pointing your muslim finger at our system of justice, why don't you clean up your own first; then point your racist finger. "THE FIVE PILLARS OF ISLAM Affirmation: "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger" which is recited constantly by devout Muslims. The Fast: Faithful Muslims fast from dawn to dusk every day during the ninth month of the Islamic calender, Ramadan, which is sacred. Almsgiving: A worthy Muslim must give 2.5% of his income to the poor. Prayer: Muslims are required to pray five times a day, kneeling and facing Mecca. The Pilgrimage: Muslims are expected to journey to Mecca at least once in their lifetime. IS ISLAM ANOTHER GOSPEL? Islam teaches that God is so far above man in every way that he is virtually unknowable. He will send individuals to Paradise or Hell as he chooses. Islam teaches that Jesus was a messenger of God, not the son of God. Muslims deny the He is Almighty God come in the flesh. (John 1:1-14, I John 4:1,2). They deny that He is divine. (Col 2:9) They deny that He died on the Cross for our sins (Most believe the Judas died in his place). They deny that He rose from the dead. (Matt 26: 28, John 19:20) They deny that He is the final, conclusive revelation of God. (Heb. 1: 1-2) IS ALLAH ANOTHER GOD? Is this stone idol the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Just because Mohammed said so doesn't make it so! Allah chose Hagar and her son, Ismael for his covenant. The God of the Bible chose Abraham's other son, Isaac, as heir to His covenant. (Gen 21: 12, 22:2-18) Allah is an impersonal being, impossible to approach or comprehend. The Bible's God befriends men like Abraham (Is. 41:8) and talks with them (Gen 18:23ff)! He loved us so much He sent His only begotten Son to die for us! (John 3:16) Allah is a god of fear and terrorism that commands destruction upon those who refuse to convert to Islam. The Bible's God delights to show His boundless mercy. His gospel is the "Good News" of peace and forgiveness. Allah requires total obedience to Islam and weighs the works of people. Allah and the Koran relegate Jesus to just the last prophet before Mohammed, below his authority. Jesus was not the Way, and could only point the way to Mohammed. The Bible's God can only be reached through Jesus Christ and trust in Him is the only way to Heaven. (John 14:6). Allah required the works of Mohammed to complete his words of judgment to man. The God Of The Bible sent His son who did the finished work of grace for man. (John 19:30) In the light of Allah's actual origin and his radical difference from the God of the Bible, we must conclude that Allah is not God. Nor is the name, Allah, a generic Mid-East name for God, as even many Christians think. Allah is the name of a false god who can not save anyone from anything. Rather, through his false prophet, Mohammed, he continues to lead hundreds of millions into eternal darkness."
From: s1mps0n [Smarter Than You]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 12:54
It consistently amazing me how willing people are to get sucked into repression. The herd mentality mixed with fear,xenophobia, and ignorance is so powerful for the majority of people that they congratulate and adore leaders/governments that imprison their minds. EVERY repressive regime uses the same exact tactics and people follow like sheep. But what I really find funny is that these same types of people wonder aloud how it happened later. Sometimes I feel like people couldn't possible be as stupid as they let on, but then they go and lower the bar even further.
From: phukislam [wipemyasswithkoran]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 14:33
I have no problem with the gov. spying on the rag-headed mother fuckers (even if they are american citizens who were born here). I know, one day it will be me they will target(until then look under every towel on every head). The most fragile thing in the world is a middle eastern man's manhood. They can screw all the women they want but let one of their women go out in public without a burka and it's time for an honor killing. Just the thought of another man sticking his penis in one of their women and their 1/2 inch selfesteem crumbles and they murder a perfectly good piece of ass. It is not about religion,faith or honor, for these fuckers it is about patriarchial oppression and control. The brand of islam today is a stupid, ignorant oppressive culture that only seeks to kill non-believers (infidels) and spread their stupid 15th century lifestyle to the rest of the planet.
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 14:35
username2, I agree totally. What kind of faith rewards bombers and supresses its people. How about wrapping up all females in a sheet..afraid that any part of them will cause man to sin. I just don't get it. What I really don't get is what took us so long! Didn't Iran declare war upon our country in the 1980's with the hostage boondoggle? How about Beruit 1982? We should have broken out the B-52's long ago.
From: canadagirl78
[God, make me chaste. But not yet.]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 15:37
"If you guys don't want McCain, send him here. (No Tasty Taters or fruit punch jokes, Canadagirl, Bliss, or anyone else!) " No worries, Mike, I'll take him too. I'd love to have our own McCain, not because I want anyone to be a POW for five years, but because you at least know he's not gonna follow his own policies at the expense of innocent human lives. And hear hear on the whole closing the borders comment, too, you read my mind. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate America or Americans, I disagree very much with current techniques being used to further policy. I agree, we all should fight terrorism- but not by bombing innocent civilians or by spying on the people who pay the taxes that afford these techniques. I don't even necessarily believe that the US gov't would become all strong handed and overreaching like they do in the movies, but I do believe that because of the incredibly close relationship between corporate America and the Gov't of America, having your gov't spying on you, your communication data and credit/library info, creates a major hazard on the free enterprise that has formed the US and it's consumer-economy base. Imagine your gov't selling info to the corporate world. It takes the fair playing field and skews it- the big business that gave most to the winning candidate now has a HUGE advantage over every other competitor, especially the mom & pop operations and small business owners. And of course, the people they employ.
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 16:35
I don't want a President that gives away our national security and weakens our ability to fight this war. We must be as brutal as our enemy. If you use 9/11, Beruit, Bali, or many other examples, as a measure of the level of force necessary to win.....we have to do everything. Someday the world will understand this fight. Or they will bow to Allah and the women will wear burkas. I pity anyone underestimating these people.
From: doczzz
[dwarf fusion]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 16:40
username2 & selmore: You guys just don't get it. Just as fundamentalist Muslims are self-defeating morons, so are the fundamentalist Christians and Jews. Quoting the bible does nothing to bolster your arguments against Islam, by the way. Rev. Pat Roberson, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, and their ilk are also leading "hundreds of millions into eternal darkness." If it weren't for the secularists who wrote the US Constitution, you'd have your own peculiar two-tiered brand of Christian backwardness and intolerance. I bet anything that it wouldn't be all that different from the kind of repression perpetrated by these Middle Eastern 'false prophets'. As if we don't have herds of them ourselves. Brilliant minds of all different religious and ethnic backgrounds are what make this country great. The Muslims who live in North America are rarely the same philosophically as the murderous Ayatollahs back home. Many (if not most) immigrated here for the same reasons the Pilgrims and other Christian sects left dear old mother England for the freedom of the New World. FYI, the Muslims in the Middle Ages were the ones who discovered and preserved modern mathematics, science, and the scholarly writings of antiquity. Their culture was eventually brought down by their religious fundamentalists, just like ours is by our own Christian fundamentalists. Medieval Christians basically just killed each other and stifled free thought and scientific inquiry for over a millennium, in very similar fashion to what Islamic theocracies are doing to progress today. The only reason things aren't the same for Europeans is that the secular ideas of the Renaissance took hold over Christian superstition, which led to the Age of Enlightenment. All the atrocities done in the name of Jehovah, Yahweh, or Allah are pretty much the same, with different groups displaying their maximal stupidity during different parts of history. Let's put all you fundamentalists on an island off the coast of Antarctica and whoever wins can establish the next Kingdom of God there. I'm not alone in wanting no part of some paranoid theocracy or a religious war, regardless of who or what you think 'God' is. Fighting an Islamic theocracy by creating an equally repressive and regressive Christian one is not going to make us any better than they are. A patriotic American would rather fight a war in support of democracy and freedom, not Christianity. I wish all fundamentalists would just leave the rest of us humans who actually respect human life and want to see humans evolve out of this miserable unending obsession with eschatology, bigotry, scheming and pissing contests over the thoughts of imaginary deities.
From: azdollarbill [Jim Jones]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 16:44
username2, you made a nice comparison between Christianity, & Islam, but then you fucked it all up with your pious holier than thou bull shit in your last paragraph. Obviously tolerance isn't taught in your version of Christianity. To quote CSN:"Too many people have died in the name of Christ, for anyone to heed the call". For musicians, I'd say that they have it just right. Ask yourself this:"Would Jesus have supported invading Iraq"?
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 17:10
I haven't made one Christian comment. I've made a comment about dangerous people that want to rule the world. Yes, just like Hitler. I don't care what faith anyone chooses. In America we are free to worship any religion out there. Believe me, we have a buffet of them. But we don't allow very many religions that preaches hate, murder in the name of your god, and that kind of crap. Hell, did you see what we did at Waco? Those people were protestants. But there are all kinds of people out there. Yeah, there has been alot of killing in the name of God. I suppose you could bring up things that happened 800 years ago. Parts of Europe have a legit complaint about our leaving them to Stalin, but now is the present and we are trying to right some wrongs. You must remember its hard to drain the swamp when its full of alligators.
From: phukislam [wipemyasswithkoran]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 17:41
FYI, the Muslims in the Middle Ages were the ones who discovered and preserved modern mathematics, science, and the scholarly writings of antiquity. Their culture was eventually brought down by their religious fundamentalists, just like ours is by our own Christian fundamentalists. I guess I stand corrected. So let me get this - the rag-heads have actually regressed to living in dirt and rocks after once being the pinnacle of science, mathematics and possibly literature? fucking unbelieveable!! And all of this is because of the ignorant fucktard mullahs and imans? If it (knowledge) threatens the power of the church then it must be of satan (keep'em in the darkness). But I do have to disagree with you about our christian fundamentalist- they are not bringing down our culture. A good many of them are home schooled and they (home schoolers) are the ones that you usually hear kicking ass on the SAT's. Their problem is that they can't see Jesus through the "legalistic" forest that they see the world with. Jesus fellowshiped with and ministered to the people that society marginalized (prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors and other outcasts). His compassion for the "outcast" was one of the things used to persecute him by his own people. The christian church needs to get back to Jesus' example of reaching out to the downcast without being judgmental and not to the wealthy churchmemebers because they tithe well. As for islam's main leader- bin laden (and he is due to the muslim world's lack of vocal opposition to his terror) is reported to be worth 350 million American dollars- how many fucking schools has he built for the education of children to be productive members of their society (hmmmm?). He has built plenty of "training camps" for the propagation of terrorism throughout the world. I don't hate pure, true islam or muslims but when you have to press the mother fuckers just to get them to denounce the terror of 9/11 or any suicide bombing then it makes you wonder what the fuck are they talking about or learning/coniving about in their fucking mosques (these places are sooo holy(sarcasm) that they can store guns and munitions in them) . So I say spy on their silent, complicit, sorry asses since their allegiance is in question. Democracy and islam are like oil and water- they can't and don't mix. The ragheads see democracy as an affront to islam and ALLAH.
From: azdollarbill [Jim Jones]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 18:26
Quote:" A good many of them are home schooled and they (home schoolers) are the ones that you usually hear kicking ass on the SAT's. " And that's all fine & dandy, if they are going to be Evangelical Preachers, or the like. Those who aspire to the sciences, find themselves at a distinct disadvantage, upon entering a place of higher learning. In fact, if it wasn't so sad, it would be downright funny, the first time they spout that creationist crap,or Devine Intervention as it is known now, as if it was a scientific fact.
From: ragnarlodbrok [Shaggypants]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 22:58
This kind of shit is ALWAYS used to track and then to stifle legitimate peaceful political voices. Why didn't the telcom branch of Megacorp squeal? Who do you think put these creeps in control? 'Control' is the key word. Buy ammo - use cash.
From: bonevalleyalco [Harvey Henkelman]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 00:11
Fuck ALL religious belief ...and the arab world should have been pounded to dust and depopulated long ago.
From: robwrigley
Date: 26-Dec-2005 00:16
jayjig barfed up: "Cryptofascist morons like Rob Wrigley are the reason the USA is sliding to hell ..." Hey, I resent that! I make no secret what-so-ever of my political leanings! _________________________________________________________________________ And all you Canadians: McCain is our Senator, and likely future president or vice. You can't have 'em! I will, however, be willing to trade Hillary Clinton for a bag of walnuts, and some of that yummy Canadian bacon. Rob
From: doczzz
[dwarf fusion]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 02:53
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 14:35
username2,
I agree totally... That's why I addressed you both as being unconditionally anti-Muslim and rabidly pro-Christian. Username's post sure was, and he uses the Bible as his primary rationale for this. You should read it again. ************** From: phukislam [wipemyasswithkoran]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 17:41
But I do have to disagree with you about our christian fundamentalist- they are not bringing down our culture...
I don't hate pure, true islam or muslims...
I disagree: 1) The Christian fundies want to teach 'intelligent design' in place of evolution (completely ignoring the importance of the Scientific Method [ucr.edu] ). Who gives a rat's ass if there is a God or not in understanding phylogeny as it relates to an organism's form and function...It's the idea that mystical explanations and 'divine intuition' can be used as substitution for scientific research that is so offensive. It's a slippery slope and a dangerous precedent, if this were allowed to happen. 2) They quote the Bible in handing down legal precedent. Using the Bible to establish jurisprudence is definitely unconstitutional, but not to folks like Antonin Scalia and Samuel Alito. 3) They favor not teaching sex ed or making birth control or abortion available to those who would most benefit. They have no right to intrude on public policy that way. This is about 1% of the examples I could have used that political Christianity is sending society into the toilet. They have no interest in adapting to the times, but only in blind adherence to Scripture. BTW, I agree that many home schooled kids get a good education, but that isn't something specific to Christians. Their biggest disadvantage is that the kids don't get exposed to 'worldly ideas' and typically wind up being pretty intolerant and closed minded about non-Christians... Finally, if you don't hate Islam or Muslims, why did you choose your profile name as such? It kind of paints you into a corner...
From: uruguayan [A man from Uruguay]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 06:00
"I know that this is none of my business, but I really hope you guys get McCain in the White House in '08." McCain is a bloodthirsy warmonger, a war criminal and has advocated every single war the US military-industrial complex has pushed for since the Vietnam War. Being more sophisticated than Dubya, he's even more dangerous than "God-told-me-to-do-it".
From: kittie
[veil of honesty, how convoluted can you get?]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 08:59
next person i meet saying "well, it's better than getting blown to bits" will need a surgeon. that's mostly what i've heard defending this crap - "oh, we're at war" - NO WE'RE NOT, we've got some vague "anti-terror" policy (how fucking novel) with all the legal liberties of war. the white house acts like terrorism sprang up out of nowhere on september eleventh. none of your arguments make sense. this is earth. people get blown to shreds. do what you can to stop it, but there is no need for PETA, military homosexuals, anti-war groups or rooftop fuckers to find themselves subject to convert investigations or harassment, and every time intelligence agencies go too far they must be outted for doing so, then forced to fire or jail several people including those who gave it the go-ahead.
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 12:28
Little Kitty, You may want to review some of the things that our former wartime presidents have done to win a war. I won't bore you with the details, for your mind is probably already full with Cindy Shehan quotes, but lets say it was some bad shit.
From: will [william]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 17:25
the muslims didn't "discover" mathematics & other branches of learning - they merely co-opted them from the civilizations they conquered and neighbouring civilizations. nor were they brought down by religious extremists - they were simply overtaken by the progress-minded west.
From: doczzz
[dwarf fusion]
Date: 26-Dec-2005 23:53
The Arabs discovered much of MODERN mathematics. In any event, medieval Christians did nothing to preserve mathematics. It was often considered heresy to them. Before the Arabic numeral system, all mathematics was with Roman numerals. The word 'Algebra' is derived from an Arabic word for 'reunion': 820 AD The word algebra is derived from the name of the treatise first written by Persian mathematician Khwarizmi titled: Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah meaning The book of summary concerning calculating by transposition and reduction. The word al-jabr means "reunion". Much of Khwarizmi's works on reduction was included in the book and added to many methods we have in Algebra now. [wikipedia.org] And yes, Muslims were brought down by religious extremists, and eventually overtaken by Western scholars. The constant warfare waged by and within the Ottoman Empire, as well as religious fundamentalism inspired by European crusaders led to the decline and colonization of much of the Arab world by Europeans in the last century. I don't care if you disagree with what I said (the causes of decline are complex and subject to debate), but support it with some scholarly arguments. You know, reading a book sometimes is a good thing.
From: brainspore [Brainspore]
Date: 27-Dec-2005 07:46
From: selmore [dave]
Date: 25-Dec-2005 16:35
"I don't want a President that gives away our national security and weakens our ability to fight this war. We must be as brutal as our enemy. If you use 9/11, Beruit, Bali, or many other examples, as a measure of the level of force necessary to win.....we have to do everything. Someday the world will understand this fight. Or they will bow to Allah and the women will wear burkas. I pity anyone underestimating these people." So in your own words, you are willing to live under a government as brutal as Al Qaeda until we have completely defeated "terrorism?" Any idea how long that might be? I was kind of hoping to live out my retirement in a democracy.
From: iguanac64 [Itchy Carter]
Date: 27-Dec-2005 10:05
FOOL! (...and this text makes it 10+ characters!)
From: dougal [richardise]
Date: 27-Dec-2005 14:04
The government has been tapping our phones without court orders since there have been phones. George Bush has just made it all MUCH, MUCH easier. For the morons: This has NOTHING to do with security. This is about stopping political competition. IE: Power and money. Cheney has wanted a "CARD" for all Americans that has an electronic chip for YEARS. Americans don't like this Nazi idea. So ... enter cellular phones and GP (global positioning). The Cheney administration is pushing for 100% cellular phone usage so that ANYONE can be traced through triangulation. This white house is aiding our 'friends' at companies like Verizon for total cellular 'compliance'. If that isn't enough, the Cheney administration is pushing that EVERY car in the U.S. has a GP chip hidden in it so that they may find YOU in a hurry. Many cars have them NOW ... without the owner's knowledge! Look, dummies, this is about the Cheney white house knowing -in advance- what WE are up to. This gives these traitors an edge as far as destroying our country, ending true democracy and taking it over in the name of the top 5% ... the rich. They've planned this for decades, stupid. Hell, they've even TOLD you so!! This is NOT about "terrorists"!! Wake up!! The Saudi royal family are the Bush's BEST FRIENDS!! DUH!! (Have you noticed that the 'terrorist' that 'masterminded' the 9-11 attack has never been caught!!?? W's best friend in the U.S.A. was a Saudi royal!!) Look, those of us who know what's been going on have told you all along and we have been shown to be right. How long is it going to take before you get off your incredibly stupid and fat asses and take back your freedoms??? This phone tapping is about monitoring the liberals and crushing them. You'll see, slugs!
From: uppitynegro
[Uppity Negro]
Date: 27-Dec-2005 16:20
What if this effort confirms that NSA discovered that the FBI broke laws? That the NSA discovered that FBI assaulted individuals and covered it up? What if the FBI has a similar program and confirmed that the NSA was breaking the law? That the NSA had an employee that violated his security clearance, would not investigate it and covered that up? That both organizations discovered that the administration was breaking laws? That all of these discoveries were kept from John Kerry during the election even though there was never any national reason to do so? If there was a reason, then why was the reason itself kept secret? (And the primary person never interviewed?) Oh ... no big deal. It's just professional courtesy to not step on each others toes during this dance ritual of posturing and posing agencies. It's routine. Nothing to see. Move along. Go back to work. UN - who has been saying this to the federal government for more than 3 years.
From: kittie
[veil of honesty, how convoluted can you get?]
Date: 28-Dec-2005 21:19
selmore, bother spelling sheehan or kittie. bore me with the details. details are fine. rhetoric in place of details is my justification for being pissed. "we're at war we're at war can't you understand we're at war our enemy is brutal do you wanna get us killed" does not adress the issue at hand and is void because our enemy is "terror" which means a lot of things besides extreme islam and terror is not a specific enemy you can ever really defeat. wartime exemptions to the constitution are meant to be temporary so the answer is of course to wage a never ending war right? you know who we should wage war on? pundits. speechwriters. campaign managers. advertisers. p.r execs. people who get paid more than all the fruitpickers in florida to filter the truth. just storm into their offices and drag them out into the streets by their hair, and stomp on them. frank luntz first.
Updated: 31-Dec-2005 04:07
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